Law Enforcement SVU

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In this conversation, Chris shares in depth about the role of law enforcement in a SVU case.

Presenter Bio:
Christopher Thomas is a detective with the Special Victims Unit at the Anchorage Police Department. He has been employed as a police officer for over 18 years. He has spent about 13 years as a detective between the Crimes Against Children Unit and the Special Victims Unit. Since 2009, he has investigated (either as the primary case detective or in some other role) over 1200 cases involving sexual abuse and sexual assault. He has received extensive training around interviewing victims of sexual violence, and around interviewing and interrogating offenders.

Interviewer Bio:
Blaze Bell is a lifelong Alaskan, Speaker, Singer, and Transformational Coach, who has turned her pain into her purpose. She is on a mission to help others heal, in the ways that she has, from trauma and addiction. Blaze has a popular podcast highlighting healing tools and a new video series interviewing leaders in the healing industry. She is the Board President of Victims for Justice and also frequently works with Standing Together Against Rape (STAR), a rape crisis intervention service in Anchorage, Alaska. As a certified holistic health coach and award-winning singer, Blaze combines her unique skill set to bring the world healing through mindfulness, health, music, and joy.

Helpful Links and Resources:
Indigenous Sexual Assault and Abuse Clearinghouse (ISAAC) - www.isaaconline.org
 
This project was supported by Grant No.2019-SA-AX-K001 awarded by the Office on Violence Against Women, U.S. Department of Justice. The opinions, findings, conclusions, and recommendations expressed in this presentation are those of the author(s) and do not necessarily reflect the views of the Department of Justice, Office on Violence Against Women or the International Association of Forensic Nurses. 

Transcript

Speaker 1: 0:00

Hello. And welcome to today's episode. This podcast is brought to you by IAFN'S, ISAAC project funded by the Office on Violence Against Women. The International Association of Forensic Nurses is the recognized authority on forensic nursing, promoting universal access to care for patients impacted by violent and trauma. The Indigenous Sexual Assault and Abuse Clearinghouse project has a mission to offer technical assistance, training and education to providers serving sexual assault survivors in tribal communities. I am your host Blaze Bell, lifelong Alaskan dedicated to helping fellow survivors heal from trauma. Today's guest is detective Chris Thomas. Detective Thomas has been with the Anchorage police department since 2003 and is currently assigned to the detective division special victims unit. He was recently honored as detective of the year with APD in this conversation. Chris shares in depth about the role of law enforcement in an SVU case, I found his honesty, openness, and empathy, very refreshing. This was a healing and uplifting interview for me personally, and I hope it will be for you as well. So let's dive in. Hello and welcome to the episode today. I have Chris Thomas with us, a member of the SVU, and first of all, just thank you so much, Chris, for taking the time to talk with us today.

Speaker 2: 1:32

Thank you very much for having me. I appreciate it.

Speaker 1: 1:33

Yeah. So this podcast really explores the journey of a survivor or sexual assault survivor, and all the different care providers that fit in, in along that journey. And of course, that can look different depending on the so many different factors in their situation. But I know for many survivors law enforcement does get involved. And I know for myself, I had my own case 15 plus years ago that the APD was involved in and was really, really incredible. Um, so I would love to hear from you where in that journey do you enter and how does that look as far as how you show up for the case for the survivor for just coming to justice and we can start there. Yeah,

Speaker 2: 2:19

Yeah, yeah. Okay. So where we come into the picture. So first of all, um, so I'm a detective in the special victims unit. There are currently seven of us. And so where we become involved in a sexual assault case or a historical sex abuse, minor case or strangulation cases, and sometimes stocking cases is, um, when somebody reaches out to law enforcement and says, Hey, I've been the victim of a, a sex assault or, you know, um, and so tip, they'll talk with a patrol officer first, and then they will, um, the patrol officer will ask them, Hey, would you like to, you know, would you be willing or able to participate in a SART forensic medical exam? Would you be willing to sit down with a detective, you know, uh, would you be willing to participate going forward to, to advance your case or to investigate it? And so when a, um, victim agrees like, yes, I will do those things. Then we get a call either we're at work or we get a call at home. And so we then come, so I work at the multidisciplinary center and, uh, which is, um, a place where there's co-located. Uh, so star comes there, the, uh, forensic nursing services of Providence is there, the, the Alaska bureau of investigation is there, Alaska cares is there, which is a, um, child advocacy center. So it's a, it's a multidisciplinary center. And so all the resources that you might need, um, if you are the victim of a sex assault, um, most of those resources are there, right? And so, uh, we will respond there and we meet with the victim. And so we'll sit down with the victim, a star advocate and a forensic nurse, and we'll just, you know, uh, so we'll take their statement. And so we'll just ask'em, Hey, tell us what you're able to tell us about what happened and then for there. So that's how we show up initially, um, kind of a, sort of a, a 10,000 foot view of how we show up. So we are, um, objective finders fact, right? So the, the best thing we can do for a victim and for the entire process is to be as objective as we can and just to be as thorough as we can, um, and just to conduct a robust investigation. So that's, that's essentially how we show up.

Speaker 3: 4:19

Yeah. Oh, that, well, that makes sense. And I didn't know, we had a multidisciplinary center where people can just have like a one stop shop. I was, I've been hoping that, that we had something like that. Yeah,

Speaker 2: 4:30

No, it's, it's best practice and we've had it. Um, so I've been a police officer for 18 years. I've been working in sex crimes for about 13 of those years. And for the entire time that I've been here, we've had one. And so historically, unfortunately, unfortunately, what has happened is when somebody comes forward, um, uh, in the past, when people came forward and said, Hey, I was, I was raped. Um, you had to talk with a patrol officer and then you'd have to give a separate statement to the nurse, and then you might have to give a separate statement to a doctor, and then, you know, like another officer might come talk with you. And so at the point where you're actually sitting down with a detective, you've talked, you've had to, you know, talk about what is arguably the worst experience of your life, you know, like six, seven times. Right. And so the, the purpose of a multidisciplinary center is to bring all those resources under one roof so that, um, you know, we we're, we're trying to minimize the, the, the trauma that, um, survivor's experience. And so, yeah, it's a great resource and I'm really thankful that we have one,

Speaker 3: 5:24

Oh, I am too. That's amazing. And I think in my case, which is now like pushing 20 years ago, um, it, there was a home invasion and a mass man and calling 9 1 1. So I think the fact that I was went straight to the hospital and, you know, in my memory, the police officer showed up there and there was a nurse and everyone, you know, so, um, I'm sure they're case case by case, of course, on how you need to show up for people. But, um, and actually, uh, chief McCoy was a detective in SBU back then, and, and yeah. And so we're still close and we still, yeah, yeah.

Speaker 2: 5:59

He's a great guy. He was a, he was a very good police detective. And so in so far as, as you know, you went forward with that process, you were lucky to have him as a detective, for sure. Yeah.

Speaker 3: 6:08

Yeah. There was, I mean, the detectives were really incredible and, uh, you know, there was a good two or three weeks of trying to find the perpetrator. And I mean, they were just working around the clock. And I just remember my mom, like taking in all kinds of goodies all the time. Like here's some cookies, here's things for your wives, we're at home, like not seeing you. And, you know, it was really touching to me to like, have that experience and get to see how hard they were working and, uh, really prioritizing again, like you said, objectively, get it for, but once they knew what was going on, it was like, yeah, it was pretty incredible. Well, I'm,

Speaker 2: 6:43

I'm glad that you, I mean, I, I don't know. I don't even know how to say this without saying weird. I'm glad that you had a good experience with law enforcement as far as that goes. Um, because wins, you know, like, uh, you know, what does a win look like in a sex assault case? Right. We, we know that like nationally, like a, a win in a courtroom is just unlikely to happen. Right. I don't know what those numbers are, but it's really, really low. It's very, very hard to solve and prove these cases in court. And so, you know, myself and my colleagues, you know, we try to ask ourselves so, well, what else, you know, what, what else does a win look like? You know, what can we do for this survivor or this victim, um, to make this experience like, you know, uh, the least impactful to their, to their health. You know what I mean? And so, um, so I dunno, so it sounds, it, you know, it feels good to hear that, that you, that you got a, a great a, you know, team of people investing in your case and

Speaker 3: 7:30

Yeah, that's good.

Speaker 2: 7:31

Yeah.

Speaker 3: 7:32

Yeah, absolutely. Well, and that leads me to trauma informed care, which is, you know, I just, that comes up in all these different area is what, where does that come in for law enforcement? And I think sometimes there's the impression that again, because you're an objective fact finder, you know, it's gonna have a different feeling than someone who is an advocate from star, who's there to nurture you. You know, sometimes it's just like, we gotta get to the bottom of this, you know? And so, so I'm curious, what is the, what does that trauma and inform care look like? Do you guys have training around, you know, how to talk to victims to not further traumatize them?

Speaker 2: 8:09

We do. So obviously, like, it's really, so part of, um, I feel really fortunate to work with star, uh, department of star and the forensic nurses. And, and it's a really, it's just a great lot because I, I, I wouldn't be doing any service to you as a victim or to the process overall, if I were to come in and act as your advocate. Right. Because ultimately that, that is gonna hurt your criminal case because, you know, the defense is gonna come back and say, well, you're not really looking at this subjectively you didn't inter you know, you didn't investigate it objectively. You were an advocate and that's not your role. Right. And so, um, so I, so basically as far as where we're at in terms of, um, so our role obviously is just to do the best investigation we can objectively. Um, but we do do it in a way that's trauma informed. So we do get training around that. Um, I know that, um, Katie TPOs is really good about getting law enforcement around the state training, um, putting on SART, like, um, introduction to SART investigation training. Um, and then more recently she got, um, some investigators fed training, uh, forensic, experiential trauma informed, um, interviewing. And so, um, what looks like for us is, so we are trained to recognize what does trauma look like, right. Because, um, so I teach at the police academy and I teach interview and interrogation. And so I teach other officers, what does deception look like? Right. And so honestly, oftentimes the things you're looking for in a deceptive suspect are what you're gonna naturally see in somebody who is experienced a real trauma. Right. And so we are, you know, we, we are taught and learned to differentiate between like, or, or to see that, to not look at this behavior, like somebody might have 30 years ago and be like, nah, this person's, this, this something's not right about this. Right. And so we're, we're trained to look at that and say, no, this is right. This is actually, this is exactly what trauma looks like. And so, um, if you're lucky you get some training around the neurobiology of trauma so that you understand what's happening in the brain when somebody is being assaulted and that looks different for different people, right? There's no one mold. Um, but there are things that, um, a lot of survivors, um, their experiences are very similar. And so far as they have trouble remembering things, they have trouble remembering things in order. Um, their emotional state may go up and down during, um, during an interview, they, they, they don't remember some details at all. Like they might not know, remember what the person looked like, but they might have a really good idea of what the knife looked like and that sort of thing. And so, um, so somebody who doesn't have the trauma informed training might look at that and say, well, that's really counterintuitive. You should know what the guy looked like. You should remember all these things. Well, that's not how it works when you're experiencing a sympathetic nervous system response. Right. You're, you're in freeze flight fight mode. And so we are trained to like, push past that and say, okay, no, this is what trauma looks like. Right. And so how we put that into practice is, um, when we are interviewing victims, um, we are obvious, see just very patient, right? Sometimes victims will yell at you and be upset with you. And you're just like, okay, well, it's not me. Right. She's just, he or she is just very upset about what's going on. And so, um, you know, we're as patient, uh, as, as we possibly can be, um, we approach things compassionately, but objectively. And, um, and you know, we also learned to focus to understand that, like, victims, aren't gonna be able to tell us, like, just, just the facts. Ma'am like, that's not how it works. Right. Because you're how you felt about what was happening is sometimes just as important as what you, you know, the, the, what the, the perpetrator's shoes looked like, or, or what have you, or whatever details. So we're trained to look for those sorts of details and, and to hone in, or hone in on the details that the survivor does remember, and to exploit those is to the extent that we can. Um, so that, so that's kind of what it looks like from our perspective, incorporating common inform care into our practice.

Speaker 3: 11:46

Yeah. Thanks for sharing that. And that's really interesting, and I'm glad that you're getting that training. And yeah, just as someone who's had PTSD and worked with a lot of other people who have it is it's very complex and it's a lot to heal. And I think too, when you're in really traumatic situations to protect ourselves, we kind of compartmentalize or fully a lot of people talk about disconnecting from their body completely for survival. And so that does a lot of strange things in the brain and you're right. And there are times, you know, and now being so healed to where I am today, there was a time a few years ago, um, of running into the, the perpetrator who was out on parole. And, uh, and in that moment, I, I did panic, but I called the parole officer and I did give the, I was like, he was wearing these shoes. He's this, all his hair was like this blah, blah, blah. You know, and I have this like super factual thing, but even, you know, 10 years after that initial assault, new things would come up or new triggers, or I'm like, whoa. Like I had completely blocked that out, cuz it was too much, you know, so I could see in your role, that would be quite complicated and probably frustrating at times, you know?

Speaker 2: 13:00

Well, and I, and I imagine too, that it's really frustrating and you see it sometimes with victims because when somebody is assaulted and they, and they're motivated enough or not, I don't know. Not sure if that's the right way to put it, but when somebody calls the police, when they're finally able to say, this is what happened to me, um, they wanna be helpful for, with the investigation. They like, let's say it's an unknown perpetrator. Right. That's not the norm. That is, that is a very frightening thing that happens. Fortunately, not as often. Right. It's usually someone that, you know, um, but like in cases like that, they wanted be like, yeah, he had red shoes on and he had black gloves and he was six foot four and he, whatever, but they can't. And so you can see that they're frustrated. And so, but you just learn to say, okay, well what, tell me what you're able to remember. And then you just really go for those details. And so, yeah. So I, you know, yeah, haven't experienced it, but I I've sat across from it. And I, I know it can be really frustrating for survivors.

Speaker 3: 13:51

Absolutely. So I'm curious for you personally, um, I've taught some different workshops with different groups on compassion, fatigue, and, uh, just what happens with you're you're seeing some kind of terrible things day in and day out. And what do you do to take care of yourself and your brain and you know, how do you find joy in life when you're just seeing such rough stuff are,

Speaker 2: 14:17

Well, that's a great question. And it's something it's a work in progress. Um, I try to, um, so when I first went to the crimes against children unit, I worked with, um, some detectives, Leah Davies and, and Devin Cunningham. I don't know if you ever in your work, um, ever met them, but they were, they're very, they were very good crimes against children, detectives, and they were like, yeah, man, you're gonna need to work out. You need to get to the, get to the gym every day. And so I try to be fairly religious about that. Um, because obviously, you know, being physically healthy just goes hand in hand to me, mentally healthy. Um, you know, I, I don't always cope with the mental stuff as well as I should. And sometimes I am at home and just get upset. Right. And, and, or you'll like, you know, you talked about triggers. Um, you know, sometimes I'll like I used to investigate, um, infant deaths pretty frequently and, uh, you know, and I'll see an infant and just get upset and just remember all the, the dead kids you saw. And so, oh, um, you just, um, you, you know, I don't, I don't know. I don't know that I have the best answer. I try to work out. I try to spend time with my family. Um, we tell a lot of really, really inappropriate jokes in the office just to kind of cuz you're the laughing about it or crying about it. Right. And so, um, so I don't, I'm probably not like the role model of like how to do with it in a healthy way. Right. But I do the best I can. So

Speaker 3: 15:34

Yeah.

Speaker 2: 15:35

As far as like compassion, fatigue go, um, it's just like if you go to the special victims unit or the crimes against children unit and you stay there, it's because you want to do the work, it's like you really believe like in the mission of, um, you know, because we're not able to arrest everybody that needs to go to jail. And so when you do get those cases, you know, that it's, it's kind of, I don't know, maybe reinvigorating a little, you know, to get that sort of win when they confess and you have evidence and you're able to prosecute them successfully. So that kind of, that keeps you going a little bit. Um, so not every case, but anyway, so I guess that's what I do.

Speaker 3: 16:11

Yeah. I mean, thank you for sharing. I mean, that was very honest, which I appreciate and you know, and in a lot of these different fields, there's just a ton of turnover and cuz people get burnt out and you know, we can't all sit and meditate for an hour every morning or whatever, you know, so, um, but I think it's always helpful also this podcast in particular is listen to a lot of different care providers. So I always wanna, you know, if there's any tips. Um, and I,

Speaker 2: 16:37

No, so, but as far as tips though, like, um, when I was in the crimes against children unit, you know, you can imagine the things that you hear and see, right. And, you know, just, uh, talking with hundreds of kids who were sexually abused and eventually it really like, you know, you talked about dissociating, well, I've done that during child forensic interview. Like I've been there right. Where you're just kind of like watching yourself from a corner. And so there was a point where I was like, you know, I think I need to go to counseling and I did. And it was, it was great. And I would recommend to anybody who works in sex crimes, like, Hey, this is gonna bother you, go see a counselor, talk about it with somebody who's like literally trained to help you with that. And like, you know, you, you made a joke about, you know, breathing and meditating, like our Lieutenant, uh, Danielle robot, she, um, you know, like she came out in the middle of, uh, the office the other day and she was like, Hey, everybody like gather around. We're all just gonna breathe for like two minutes, you know? So yeah, we do do those things, you know? Yeah. We joke about it, but what we do, those things cause they help, you know.

Speaker 3: 17:31

Right, right. Absolutely. And there's a, a whole bunch of science to back up meditation and you know, and I'm all about like small doses. I mean, I've got a couple kids and it's hard to do these long planned out things. But I mean, even before this interview I did like a 10 minute ride on my cycling bike.

Speaker 2: 17:49

Yeah.

Speaker 3: 17:49

It's like just the endorphins. I'm like, I don't know like what my body's doing, but my brain is like my, I energy's way better. Um, so yeah, finding those little moments to like recalibrate, reset and definitely the counseling. And I think even when I started working for star and doing more intense one-on-one work, I was like, yeah, I, I wanna talk to someone cuz this is confidential information. I'm not gonna go tell my family, my friends, but some of this, I don't want it to stay inside of me either. You know?

Speaker 2: 18:17

So I know, I know. And it's like as, as professionals, um, you know, like we spend a lot of time talking with each other, you know, amongst ourselves as detectives, you know, about our cases. And we talk with a lot about, you know, we with advocates and, and the nurses and, and just everybody we work with, but we don't necessarily sit around and, and talk about our feelings. And so, um, you know, cuz you don't always feel safe enough to do that. And maybe I don't wanna roll in on a Tuesday and be like, Hey, I had a good cry the other day cuz I was thinking about this case or whatever. Right. And so I would say, yeah, if you're a star advocate or a nurse or a detective or somebody who is having like the, is repeated, um, interactions with people who are telling you some really hard information go to a counselor, it's great. Like don't be afraid. It's okay. You know, it's, it's good for you. It's healthy. So,

Speaker 3: 19:00

So I know that in my personal case it was a fairly extreme by fairly, I mean very, um, and that that's not really what it looks like for, or some of the other people I've worked with. So in your experience, as someone who's seen in a lot of cases, um, what do you think might be some common misconceptions about what rape or sexual assault looks like?

Speaker 2: 19:23

So I feel like, so obviously there's a lot of survivors out there, right? I mean, I mean I think conservatively, I went to one training and it was a child forensic interview training and, and the trainer was like, yeah, you know, like one and four girls are abused before they're 18 and, and some researchers think it's more like one and two. Right. And so I tend to think it's probably more like one out of every two as opposed to one of every four, but who knows. Right. And so, um, so there's a lot of people who know from, from experience what it looks like, but I think at large tends to think that rape looks a certain way that it really doesn't. And so I, and what I mean by that is I feel like people, um, have this conception that like, oh, rape is something that happens when you're on a trail and a stranger knocks, you know, a stranger knocks you off the trail and then they forcibly rape you and it's violent. And that's really just like, that happens like two or three times a year. And like the other like 600 cases that we investigate just at our agency. Right. Not counting the troopers or Wasilla or Palmer, um, or the thousands of people who just are just like, nobody's gonna believe me, I'm not reporting. Right. So for like the, like the com the most, a more common experience is that it's somebody that, you know, right. It's that it's like, you're at a bar and you're like, oh, this guy's really cute. Yeah, no, I'd love to go home with this guy. And then he just turns on you. And now all of a sudden he's pinning you down and you don't even know what to do, so you're not fighting back. Right. So it's not this dynamic violent encounter, but yet he's using force. And so he, you, you know, a rape is happening, right. He is rape. He is raping somebody. Um, you know, you're more likely to be assaulted by somebody that, you know, and trust. Right. Because, and, and I think also importantly, people tend to think that rapists may look and act in a, in certain ways that they don't. And I don't know if you've ever read anything by Anna Salter. She wrote a really good book called predator. And Anna Salter is somebody who wor has worked with sex offenders for four years. And one of the points that she makes over and over in her trainings and her literature is sex offenders are really, really good at presenting, um, a face to the public that allows them to gain access to their victims. They're nice. Well, groomed, polite, funny, and then they're not right, but they don't, but they're not showing the public at large that face. And so I, you know, so those are some of the, the misconceptions I think that people have, and that, that impacts our jury rule. Right. So at the point where we go to trial, um, you have potentially a group of jurors who thinks that well, yeah. Well, she just laid there and I'm not really sure if that's a rape. Well, it's like, well, no, that is, that's what it looks like. Right. Because I mean, think about what happens to the brain when you're being assaulted or, or think about how you freeze when you walk out and there's a moose right there. Right? Like you don't, you don't take the action you think you should, or anyway, I, I just think, um, like rape is complicated. The brain is complicated when people are assaulted, a lot of things have happen that are counterintuitive. You think that you're gonna fight. You think that you're gonna do these things, but oftentimes, like I hear over and over from victims, um, you know, like I'll ask them, you know, are you able to, um, say, or you able to tell me anything that you said to this person while they were assaulting you and you'll hear these weird things, and it's not weird, but you'll hear things that had, um, at first blush, like, huh, that's strange, but they'll say I have a boyfriend, I have a boyfriend. And they're just repeating that over and over, because like, nobody is trained on how to, how nobody gets training on how to respond to when you're raped. And so, but that's really common for people to say that. And so jurors might hear that and be like, well, that's a weird response. Well, how would you respond? You don't know until you've been there. Right. So, so those are things that I would wanna share with people. That's, that's more like what a real rape looks like, you know, it's, it's not intuitive. So,

Speaker 3: 22:54

Yeah. Well, and I think, you know, that kind of ties in with the PTSD and just all the, the strange things that happen in the brain when you suddenly are, first of all, in shock, in a situation you weren't expecting and then moving into survival mode where that's just not like in any other time. And, um, and so the, again, that, that's something I hear a lot too with survivors is people don't understand why I didn't fight or, or I don't understand why I didn't, you know, and, and, and that's so frustrating. And I know even for me, also in survival fighting might not the way you're gonna survive either. And I know for me, like I wa I did fight for a little while until I was like, I can't win this fight. Maybe if I stop fighting, I'll survive. I'll live another day, you know, and that's these horrible positions to be put in. Um, and again, some people just absolutely freeze. And so I'm glad that you understand that. And, and also I've heard that too, that I don't even know the statistic. You might on how many people know their assailant. You know, it's like,

Speaker 2: 24:03

I don't know if the statistic, the, and it's really high, really kinda, I just wanna make like, sort of a, a comment on the whole fight or flight thing. And, um, so, you know, I've had a lot of training is around like the sympathetic nervous system response. I'm a polygraph examiner. So I spent two and a half months and a large part of that was, uh, physiology and anatomy. And we learned about that response, cuz it is sort of at the core of it gets to the core of what polygraph, right. And it's not fight or flight. It is freeze flight fight in that order, unless you've been trained, you will freeze. Then you will try to run and you will fight it as a last resort. And, and you're right. Like, like there are entire, um, there are species of animals whose entire survival strategy is just to play dead. Right. You, so that's another common misconception people have that you're that you're somehow gonna get in this dynamic struggle. It's like, well, no, you probably won't, you're gonna freeze cuz you didn't expect this to happen. Nobody broadcasts, oh I'm gonna assault you later. No, they're funny. They're witty. They're giving you drinks. Everything's really good until it's not right. So I, I think that's important for people to understand so that they don't have these unrealistic expectations when they're, when they're encountering survivors or when they're, you know, or, or as a juror that they don't have these unrealistic expectations that somehow this woman or this little girl or whatever should have done all these things that they're just not gonna do. It's just not realistic. So

Speaker 3: 25:22

Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. I also, uh, you mentioned, you know, that one out of four, maybe one out of two. Um, and I just wanna say too, that there's also a high percentage of males and uh, any gender. And so I think that's another one too, where we actually have some interviews on this podcast, you know, talking about, um, male trauma and uh, abuse and you know, that's also really prevalent and I think also another one that's another layer of difficult to share and um, for its own reasons, you know, so I'm sure highly underreported,

Speaker 2: 25:59

Um, no doubt. Yeah. I mean, and that's a whole extra layer of complications. Um, you know, because maybe somebody is like, well, I don't want my wife to know that I'm homosexual and was with this guy and then he raped me or whatever. Like, you know, we talk to people that happens, you know, or, or yeah, that obviously comes with the additional complexity, right?

Speaker 3: 26:16

Yeah.

Speaker 2: 26:18

But we do see a lot of men at the MDC and, and, and I'm with you, I'm guessing. I mean, you've indicated that that's probably massively underreported. Um, if I heard you correctly, I think that's what you're saying and yes it is. Right. I'm guessing men are less likely to come forward cuz they're like, well this is really humiliating. Like I'm not, am I a man? If this happened to me, you know, I'm sure there's these, you know, things out there like that where, so

Speaker 3: 26:39

Yeah. And I'm, I'm really grateful for all the things about the internet that drive me crazy. I do feel like there's so much healing, uh, tools that people have at their fingertips now that were not existed 30 years ago in the way they are today. So

Speaker 2: 26:54

Hopefully resources. Yeah.

Speaker 3: 26:55

Yeah. So for anyone struggling in that way, you know, please, if you're not ready to, you know, calling the police is not the answer for a lot of people. Um, and I'm sure you understand that. And so that, but there are a lot of resources and groups and communities out there for everybody. So

Speaker 2: 27:12

A hundred percent and, and like one of the thing and, and I don't know that everybody, I know that people don't like understand this in a, in a way that's why it's spread in our community is, and so help looks different to different people and calling the police is not always the answer for a number of reasons. And I totally understand that. Right. I've talked to a lot of people who eventually did, and I understand their plight. It's like, oh, this is the breadwinner in your home. Yeah. If this person goes to prison for 25 years, where are you gonna go with your three kids? Right. And so that's just one example. Right. But you know, for one thing I would like people out there to understand is that if, if you are sexually assaulted and you decide like I don't, I can't, I'm not able right now in this moment to talk to police, you can report anonymously. You can go to the SAR center and you can have a forensic medical examination done and they capture the evidence and then it's sent to the state lab and it's stored, um, in definitely. And so, and so at some point in the future, be that a week, a year, 10 years you can come back and say, Hey, you know, I was assaulted and I've decided I am ready now to go forward. So that's an option. People have too, you, you can still capture, you know, some of that evidence and, and, and get some of the medical treatment without having to sit down and talk to police.

Speaker 3: 28:23

So

Speaker 2: 28:23

That's, that's an option.

Speaker 3: 28:25

Yeah. That's good to know. Could people also call, uh, the police and ask questions without making an official report? Like, can they like abort mission halfway through? If you're like, oh, this is gonna be, you know, not safe for me or something.

Speaker 2: 28:41

No, I know that's kind of complicated. So I know I'm was talking to somebody the other day and they're like, Hey, can you just turn your recorder off? And it's like, well, I can't. Right.

Speaker 3: 28:50

Okay.

Speaker 2: 28:50

Not ethical. So if you call the police and you're like, Hey, I'd like to talk to you about a sex assault. Like the first thing they're gonna do is, is they're, we're trained to turn our tape recorders on and we're not just gonna erase recordings. We don't destroy evidence. Right. That goes into evidence. And so, um, I mean, you certainly can call the police and ask questions, but you know, they're, if you describe a violent assault or a sex assault or a sex abuse, like they're gonna write a report cuz it's our job. Right. We have to document those things. We do not, you know, even though we might understand, like I know you don't wanna report now we are not gonna sweep that under the rug. We're gonna document that. Um, and so,

Speaker 3: 29:26

Okay,

Speaker 2: 29:26

This is where, but this is like, there are other organizations you can call star, right? Yeah. Yeah. So like the advocates know all these things, like the star advocates are really well versed in all the resources that people um, can use. And so if you're in a position where you're like, I don't really wanna talk to the police right now for what it doesn't, you don't have to have a reason you could just not want to report it. That's fine. Um, reach out to star, they know.

Speaker 3: 29:49

Yeah. You

Speaker 2: 29:49

Know, they'll help you get forward, you know, get to where you need to be in that you may, whether that's counseling or the police or something else. Right.

Speaker 3: 29:56

Yeah. And I think that's true for a lot of organizations. Um, I work a lot with victims for justice and same thing. If they can't provide the help, they know exactly who to call, they can answer so many questions, you know? So yeah. Probably awake as well and yeah. Many others.

Speaker 2: 30:12

Yeah. Right awake. There's so many, there's, there's a lot of organizations out there. No one person has all the answers, but like as a team, right. We can feel that questions a team.

Speaker 3: 30:21

Yeah, absolutely. So I just appreciate the work you're doing and you know, I know again, it's, it's a really challenging job and I'm incredibly grateful for the people that are choosing to do this. And I know it takes a lot of courage and it can't be easy. So I just appreciate you choosing to be a detective and for sharing with us today. Thank you.

Speaker 2: 30:41

You're very kind. I, I appreciate it. Thank you.

Speaker 1: 30:45

This podcast is made possible by funding from the Office on Violence Against Women, the opinions, findings, conclusions, and recommendations expressed in the presentation are those of the authors and do not necessarily reflect the views of the department of justice, the Office on Violence Against Women or the International Association of Forensic Nurses. If you would like to connect with an advocate after listening to this episode, please call 1-800-656-HOPE, that's 800-656-4673. To be routed to an advocate in your area 24/7, or go to rainn.org, R A I N N.org for more info or live chat.